From the seventh verse to
the fifteenth verse of Chapter 2 of 2 Kings, we are told the story of Elijah
and his protégé Elisha. On their way to their destination, they came upon the
banks of the River Jordan. On the banks, they stopped since the river was in
flood, therefore difficult to ford. Elijah was wearing a cloak, also called a
mantle. He took off the cloak after which he rolled it up before striking the
waters with the rolled up mantle. Upon being whacked by the mantle, the waters
of the River Jordan divided to the right and to the left to leave a dry path on
the floor of the river where the waters had been parted. Thus split, Elijah and
Elisha crossed over the dry path.
“Tell me, what can I do
for you before I am taken from you?” Elijah said to Elisha, once they had
safely crossed the river.
“Let me inherit a double
portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
“You have asked a
difficult thing,” Elijah said to Elisha. “However, if you see me when I am
taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.” Not too long after
that exchange, Elijah was taken up to heaven in whirlwind, which Elisha is
quoted calling the chariots and horsemen of Israel. When Elijah was taken up to
heaven, he did not take his cloak with him. It was left on the spot on which he
had previously stood. From this spot that Elisha picked up the cloak. As Elijah
had previously done to the flooded river, Elisha struck the water with Elijah’s
mantle. Lo and behold, the stricken water “divided to the right and to the
left.” Elisha crossed the sundered river.
Witnessing all this was a
company of the prophets from Jericho. As Elisha split the river, the prophets
remarked: “The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha.” They approached Elisha
to pay him obeisance.
From the look of it,
Elisha had requested to be used as the homwe of Elijah’s spirit. With Elijah’s
body gone, his soul, which embodied his talents such as the ability to call
fire from the heavens to strike his enemies and the parting of waters, found a
new body or the figurative receptacle, vessel or container in the person of
Elisha. Such beneficent spirit that is heritable is called a SHAVE by the
Karanga people. The person who inherits that shave is called a HOMWE. Even that
mantle that Elisha inherited from Elijah constitutes part of the inheritance
social facet quite common among the Karanga people, the custom kugara nhaka,
thus making Eisha the HARANHAKA of Elijah.
What is of equal
importance, if not greater interest, here is the almost identical phenomenon as
taught Rhodesian Native Commissioner Frederick Wilhelm Traugott Posselt by his
Karanga informants. In a book published in 1935, Posselt records the following,
which I shall quote verbatim:
“Nerwande and Lembewu
lived in Uzungu. Lembewu suggested to the other they should follow Mavudzi.
Thus it came about that Nerwande collected the people by summons through his
son Neunje. They came to Nyanza, a great [body of] water which they could not
cross. Thereupon Neanda, the daughter of Mavudzi, TOOK OFF HER APRON AND STRUCK
THE WATERS WHICH PARTED AND THE PEOPLE CROSSED.”
I capitalized part of the
last sentence for emphasis.
In the two sentences as
given us by our elders through the words of Commissioner Posselt, we have a
replication of what Elijah and Elisha did according to 2 Kings 2:8 and 2 Kings
2:14, respectively. It can actually be argued that Neanda, which must surely be
Nehanda, performed a greater feat than that of Elijah and Elisha. Nehanda split
asunder the waters of a great lake, called a nyanza by the Bantu people. Elijah
and Elisha dealt with the waters of a river.
What is noteworthy here is
that we seem to have yet another African narrative of a miracle that has
parallels to narratives recorded in the Bible. We actually have a myriad of
similarly parallel narratives. On encountering some of these narratives during
his ethnological and anthropological studies, Professor Michael Gelfand ended
up remarking, and I quote: “The Shona [in the book I am citing, Gelfand had
actually said that the Shona people do not call themselves Shona] disd the talk
of usury as much as the talking of profit. They no more permitted a lender to
charge interest than the Jews of in the Old Testament. These attitudes persist
in the countryside today.”
Lastly, let me cite one
more example of a miracle that was relayed to Gelfand. A traditional rain
priest had the power to walk through a pouring torrential rain without getting
wet. We are told that the rain parts wherever the priest is present. I write
this in the present tense the way Gelfand recorded it. I have no idea if we
still have people capable of performing such miracles, any more than we still
maintain our abhorrence for parasitic materialism and loan sharks, that we now
only witness in the Bible and the ancient records left behind by the people of
ancient Egypt.
Anyhow, these are my
African Facts of the Day (AFOTD).
Comments
50 of 66
Madzivire
Mavata You must take into cognition that the Bible (Exodus)
actually confirms that Egyptian magicians could actually perform same 'tricks'
as Moses' rod. Similarities do not necessarily mean the same
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Which God?
I assume the "God" you are referring to is the Abrahamic God introduced to us by missionary colonialism. …See More
I assume the "God" you are referring to is the Abrahamic God introduced to us by missionary colonialism. …See More
SUNDAYMAIL.CO.ZW
Is ‘Mwari’
the same as Abrahamic God? | The Sunday Mail
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe I remember a story about my sekuru (hazvanzi
yamai vangu). He was the son of a great n'anga and was supposed to take over
when the old man died. Unfortunately he refused because of being educated.
After the old n'anga has passed on, he came back in a d…See More
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe And sekuru vangu is late and the stuff he
knew about kurapa has gone!
Sidney
Taruvinga Sekuru Vatj Hungwe: The dream should come
again. This time kumuzukuru or mwana wemuzukuru.
Spiwe
N Harper This is very interesting my brother Bvumavaranda. I hope one day you will give us
your thoughts on the age old story of Gomo reVasikana who are said to have gone
up a mountain and disappeared after pointing to what they saw, and about those
places that…See More
Neddington Mushawatu Africa was holy
up untill the coming of the white people. When missionary came they didn't have
the power of prophecy and hence they called our prophets demon possessed due to
misunderstanding the power of God in Africa.
Masimba
Musodza Gelfand, being Jewish, would have found the story
of the parting of the water particularly interesting. I wonder how this then
adds up to the rabbinical view that the Parting of the Red Sea was so unique
and special a miracle that even the angels (i.e Ha-Satan) questioned what the
Israelites had done to be worthy of it.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro You have a literalist and historical reading
of the scriptures.
A religiously mature Jew did not view anything literally and historically.
Refer yourself to "Jewish PARDES."
A religiously mature Jew did not view anything literally and historically.
Refer yourself to "Jewish PARDES."
Masimba
Musodza Dude, one comment does not make you an expert on
how I read. Thank you, sit down
Spiwe
N Harper Masimba ka 😂😂😂😂 Shingai nhasi wamuwana akugarisa
pasi. 😂😂😂 And over here I'm rolling on the
floor laughing. Masangana manje.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Spiwe N Harper not even!
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Masimba Musodza if you were not a
literalist and historical reader of scriptures, you would not make a statement
that validates a shallow reading of the scriptures.
Literalist and historical reading is what most religious people especially of Christian affinity and affiliation is the only way they know.
Literalist and historical reading is what most religious people especially of Christian affinity and affiliation is the only way they know.
Tawanda
Kapikinyu Va Shingai Rukwata Ndoro mapoints munenge
munawo henyu tonozongopesana pakufungira kuti your side of the story is the
ultimate truth with no allowance for other theories. Your responses are rather
dismissive than constructive criticism.
You say pretty much the things I agree with and respect you for that.
You say pretty much the things I agree with and respect you for that.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Tawanda Kapikinyu your characterization
of me is not fair. Please quote me where I have not engaged anyone with the
most sense of decorum.
Masimba
Musodza You argue a
child
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Masimba Musodza you are now insulting me
and let me inform you that you don't have monopoly to insults.
Learn to be decent, civil and decorous.
Learn to be decent, civil and decorous.
Masimba
Musodza You would not know decent, civil and decorous if
they came in here singing, "decent, civil and decorous are here."
Otherwise, you would not use language "shallow." You who gets his
information from websites and can't understand why other Africans …See More
Wilberforce Nyamutsika Ngadzisiye
mutambo varume
Masimba
Musodza Mbuya iyi ngaizive kuti Nyamuzihwa havadenwi.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Masimba Musodza be very comforted by your
ranting.
But you don't have monopoly to insults and this is a word of advise.
But you don't have monopoly to insults and this is a word of advise.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Masimba Musodza you are stinking rubbish.
You can't take a criticism because you are used to monologues.
You can't take a criticism because you are used to monologues.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Masimba Musodza you consider my
interventions as kudenha as if I used a single invective directed at you.
If there was any remark from me that you had found unfriendly, hostile or antagonistic, would not have been decent, civil and decorous for you to have brought that to my attention? …See More
If there was any remark from me that you had found unfriendly, hostile or antagonistic, would not have been decent, civil and decorous for you to have brought that to my attention? …See More
Masimba
Musodza Now he tries to be reasonable. All of this could
have been avoided if you had been courteous from the start. Chiona manje. I
tried to draw your attention but you were too stuck up to notice. Have a good
day, sir. Next time, don't use words "shallow" on people you do not know
because tinokuchinja napukeni very fast.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Masimba Musodza if you made a shallow
argument that is not an insult. It's not your area of competence to understand
the full spectrum of religions.
You don't insult strangers.
Unogadzirisika very fast.
You don't insult strangers.
Unogadzirisika very fast.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Masimba Musodza "shallowness"
is not an insult!
Masimba
Musodza You are not a stranger... you are outright batshit
crazy
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Masimba Musodza bullshit!
Wellington
Ziwenga If truth be told Shingai on this thread you are being
condescending and patronising. Critiquing your article in the Sunday Mail is
not debunking it but opening up on other theories you might have missed. Most
of our history is oral and a lot of things make sense when we share and
compare the parts of our history we know. You appear to get very annoyed when a
different perspective is offered. Using the word shallow directed as someone
giving an alternative view from yours comes across, to me, as being dismissive.
That is never a good way to interact with anybody. We always learn from each
other on such discussions and not throw insults what is happening now. People agree to differ
on certain issues but never trade insults. We have different clans from North,
East, West and South of Africa and we learn from each other. Mutual respect and
understanding is key to a good debate. Ase!
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga can you draw out the
specific post of mine that you have found to be what you are describing.
Let's not make ill-founded remarks by taking things personally.
Let's not make ill-founded remarks by taking things personally.
Wellington
Ziwenga I will be the last person to take things
personally. My point above was not accusatory at all. I made an observation and
felt that I should highlight the fact that you "seem" to be dismissive
of other views and now you are being defensive. No need for that sir. Can we
add on to your article in the Sunday Mail please and not continue talking about
apples and oranges.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga its personal if you to
say that I'm being "condescending and patronizing" without pulling
out the relevant and specific statements.
I'm not being defensive. All I'm saying if you are to have a conversation about my posts and/or Sunday Mail article, by all means let's get into the finer details not general statements.
For example to say that a post is shallow (impersonal), it doesn't mean one is shallow (personal).
To say that I'm condescending and patronizing, that's being personal because you have not shown which post is if your characterization.
I'm not being defensive. All I'm saying if you are to have a conversation about my posts and/or Sunday Mail article, by all means let's get into the finer details not general statements.
For example to say that a post is shallow (impersonal), it doesn't mean one is shallow (personal).
To say that I'm condescending and patronizing, that's being personal because you have not shown which post is if your characterization.
Spiwe
N Harper Aikazve is this how far this has gone? Cool it you
two wonderful people. Just agree to disagree in good spirit. You've both got
great minds so leave it for the next time around, hey.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Spiwe N Harper I have been refuting some
posts here and some did not it maybe
they are not used to refutation or dissent.
Spiwe
N Harper Let it go please Shingai.
Wellington
Ziwenga Ndi chandagwinyira
Wellington
Ziwenga It's good to have an ego. Actually it is healthy if
that ego is not misplaced. Inbox me and we talk. Let us continue with your
unresearched article on Mwari. You went to the extent of dismissing a respected
sister from Malawi citing people of Malawian origin whom you claim to have
interviewed. That is how dismissive you are. It's a person asking an Irish American about the
traditional rites of the Irish and when an Irish person tries to steer you in a
correct and good direction. You turn around and tell the Irish not to bother
because you have spoken to an Irish American. Do you get the sense?
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga she was throwing
weblinks whose articles she had not read.
I made a submission on the issue and she could have further refuted what I had said.
I'm still waiting for a refutation of my research not a narrative of Christians who want to turn the narrative to fit into the Christian framework or disposition.
I made a submission on the issue and she could have further refuted what I had said.
I'm still waiting for a refutation of my research not a narrative of Christians who want to turn the narrative to fit into the Christian framework or disposition.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Where is the
article, Mhofu Wellington Ziwenga?
Charles
Tmj Dube He has these sources which run contrary to what we
have always known and thinks they are new discoveries in knowledge which nobody
must desecrate. Even to imagine the was no usage of the word god until 8th
century is strange and we must go along because he got it from some encyclopedia
somewhere. He brings in his "researches' even where they do not fit just
because they have no takers elsewhere which tends to bring unnecessary polemics
into what would be an interesting thread in its own right.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube you are not being
truthful because of your Christian affinity and affiliation.
You always say this to run away from responding to perpetuate your proselytizing that is contrary to the spirit of basic and amateur research.
You always say this to run away from responding to perpetuate your proselytizing that is contrary to the spirit of basic and amateur research.
Wellington
Ziwenga She also has articles on most of the issues you
touched on in your article but you were very dismissive to her otherwise wise
suggestion.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga if an argument is
weak, are you to ignore that?
I asked her if she had read the articles. She did not respond.
I asked her if she had read the articles. She did not respond.
Wellington
Ziwenga Chirandu it must be somewhere on here. Shingai can
you please give us a link to your article.
SUNDAYMAIL.CO.ZW
Is ‘Mwari’
the same as Abrahamic God? | The Sunday Mail
Charles
Tmj Dube Wellington Ziwenga he always brings them
in even when they do not add value to a thread.
Wellington
Ziwenga Weak is subjective here. Given the fact that
knowledge of our history is not known by just one person.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube I repeat you are not
being truthful.
You can't stand me for removing layers on your proselytizing.
You can't stand me for removing layers on your proselytizing.
Wellington
Ziwenga Your article does not fully explain the subject
rather it comes across as being a definition of the word Mwari.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga I have never
proclaimed monopoly of anything.
This is an open discussion and I'm pleased if fellow Africans indicate any blind spots in my submissions.
This is an open discussion and I'm pleased if fellow Africans indicate any blind spots in my submissions.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga yes it was a
definition of Mwari in response to those who want to equate Mwari and the
Abrahamic or Caucasian God.
Charles
Tmj Dube Shingai Rukwata Ndoro How I wish you
could liberate yourself from engaging people in the light of your
categorisations. If you watch my only contribution on this thread, you will
find I am bringing a scripture which demonstrates that all nations have known
God because there was a heavenly being assigned to each nation by God and now
you use your preconceived ideas to project me? Pwipwipwipwi
Wellington
Ziwenga Hmmmmmm. Huhhhhh! It really doesn't. One does not
come away saying they read the article and understood it, if they were to go by
the subject. That is my opinion on the article.
Charles
Tmj Dube Even on God, my argument is that it is the same
God. Different names in different nationalities, but you give the impression
your sources make it different and that all Africans are so sedated they cannot
think for themselves and are just subject to manipulation.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube I really wonder why you
don't call your Caucasian or Abrahamic God the same as Zeus, Allah, Zoroaster
or Brahman.
You want Africans to perpetuate the usage of the Germanic mythical ancestor, Gott/Gaud/Gawd (God) to be the name of the…See More
You want Africans to perpetuate the usage of the Germanic mythical ancestor, Gott/Gaud/Gawd (God) to be the name of the…See More
Charles
Tmj Dube You see, it would be problematic with you because
your understanding of the term god is different and has more meaning than what
I have. I use the understanding of the term god in my mind and not in yours. I
believe most do the same. I use my mindset and not yours. The simple answer is because
I am not you.
Charles
Tmj Dube Shingai Rukwata Ndoro If there is anyone
proselytizing, it is you. Most people are not bringing comparatives in their
comments, but just dealing with the subject at stake. You try to impose your
worldview on the rest to the extent they are not allowed to use the word god in
theirmown understanding without your permission.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube you are just showing
proof that you would rather be untruthful and perpetuate a colonial lie in
defense of your religious affinity and affiliation.
God was a term that was brought into Christianity out of conquest. …See More
God was a term that was brought into Christianity out of conquest. …See More
Wellington
Ziwenga This man is not talking about his article anymore.
He is talking about self. Ego vs knowledge.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube go ahead use it and
there are some me who would not be
silent about the lies.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga I explained myself
already and I'm responding to Charles.
Charles
Tmj Dube Shingai Rukwata Ndoro What is all that?
was the word first used in Africa or designed for Africans? I am getting lost.
Me venerating Christian conquest? Do you understand me and my history? On whose
behalf? Thought you had declared you were a Republican and humanist, whatever
that means?
Charles
Tmj Dube Shingai Rukwata Ndoro What lies?
Charles
Tmj Dube You should be pretty weird.
Wellington
Ziwenga Your domination of this thread is not bringing any
substance if anything we are learning about you and not that said article of
yours. You are the first person here who has had to be challenged on your
knowledge of your own article. That should say a lot! You are so defensive
there is inot even anywhere where you have accepted to have erred. You are
right on everything, according to you.
Wellington
Ziwenga This forum is not about making celebrities out of
people rather we learn from each other and never go so far as to tell anyone
that tgey are boring. But somehow I am finding you boring because you don't
want to learn from anyone. Humble yourself it will take you far.
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Masimba Musodza Your response to Shingai is indicative that you are out of
your intellectual depth.
You threw stones instead firstly learning from what he shared, and you failed to offer an informed rebuttal in the event you had one.…See More
You threw stones instead firstly learning from what he shared, and you failed to offer an informed rebuttal in the event you had one.…See More
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Tawanda Kapikinyu I think if Shingai is putting up a cogent argument
and supporting it well, he has every right to stand by his argument without
giving ground in fear of being castigated as someone who knows it all.
The point of debating is to stand by your perspective but when people with inferior perspectives or ones they can't argue convincingly perceive that as knowing it all, there is a huge problem in that.
The point of debating is to stand by your perspective but when people with inferior perspectives or ones they can't argue convincingly perceive that as knowing it all, there is a huge problem in that.
Wellington
Ziwenga Truth be told the article does not teach anything.
I wonder what criteria was used to have published in a reputable paper
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Masimba Musodza If your narrative is
shallow why should it not be called out for what it is?
I second Shingai in thinking that your argument is a strawman's argument and that's not an insult but a perception that you should contest accordingly.
To feel insult is to treat Shingai's perception as authoritative and overbearing, giving it credence.
I second Shingai in thinking that your argument is a strawman's argument and that's not an insult but a perception that you should contest accordingly.
To feel insult is to treat Shingai's perception as authoritative and overbearing, giving it credence.
Charles
Tmj Dube Wellington Ziwenga, watchout, this could be a
faction, pwipwipwi. I sing from your hymnal though.
Wellington
Ziwenga Target yavo ndi Nyamuzihwa.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube you always run away from
your own threads even on your wall.
You enjoy it when your friends come to your Facebook wall to abuse me.
I dare you as follows:
Prove you have ever responded to me in a non-faith way to any of my submissions.
You enjoy it when your friends come to your Facebook wall to abuse me.
I dare you as follows:
Prove you have ever responded to me in a non-faith way to any of my submissions.
Tawanda
Kapikinyu Rutendo Benson Matinyarare it was in
response to his utterances elsewhere in the thread where he was simply
dismissive pasina contribution. Here he doesnt drive his point home...arguments
or opinions are not about namecalling or to sound a know it all. We are all learning. Pakuzoita
finalise kuti munhu ari shallow etc without interrogating further kuti anga
achida kuti chii is off for me. Nobody is authority pa information. The best
would be to make the next person undertand than shut them out. Hakuna munhu
anokura paknowledge asingazive kuti understanding dzevanhu dzakasiyana. Iyi
yemacategory ndairamba
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Charles Tmj Dube How do you prove that
there was the word God before 8th Century? What authoritative proof do you have
that it existed?
And what proof do you have that we even existed then?
And what proof do you have that we even existed then?
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Charles Tmj Dube Is the word God noun or
name?
Who is God, one person or any heavenly, meta-physical being?
And how does one know that the God in reference is the same God if a name of the God is not used?
Who is God, one person or any heavenly, meta-physical being?
And how does one know that the God in reference is the same God if a name of the God is not used?
Wellington
Ziwenga Rutendo I don't believe all these
people's views are wrong and I do not buy your said defence of Shingai. He is not accepting criticism of his
article instead he is making it personal. Most people tried to steer him
towards his article but he has a big ego. We are not children here and the
article is poor, in my opinion. But obviously I was not going to be that blunt.
Somehow you are now making a joke out of us and I do not think that is fair.
Talk to your friend and make him understand that people learn from each other.
If someone is being patronising and condescending I will not be silenced.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Tawanda Kapikinyu check all my posts, you
will notice that I express my disagreement with a submission and I then offer
my own.
One should equally refute mine.
Earlier in the thread I was challenged to provide textual details about the origins of the word God and I liberally shared.
Those who had been disagreeing with me did not interrogate or examine the texts I shared.
So there is need to improve conversational skills fellow Africans.
This is a public square!
One should equally refute mine.
Earlier in the thread I was challenged to provide textual details about the origins of the word God and I liberally shared.
Those who had been disagreeing with me did not interrogate or examine the texts I shared.
So there is need to improve conversational skills fellow Africans.
This is a public square!
Tawanda
Kapikinyu Rutendo Benson Matinyarare see there is a
difference between how you take on people than this guy...e.g just now you
asked Charles kuti 'How do you prove that there was the word God....'
I can tell you Shingai would not even go there...he will simply tell you 'go back to school' or something that doesnt add value..rather discouraging. He doesnt stir debate but shuts debates and its a put off
I can tell you Shingai would not even go there...he will simply tell you 'go back to school' or something that doesnt add value..rather discouraging. He doesnt stir debate but shuts debates and its a put off
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Charles Tmj Dube You use the name God in
your understanding: so the communication chain is broken here, right? Because
in communication we use words and symbols in their previously agreed [codified]
meaning and not what we choose to make them.
So if everyone makes up meanings of words as they go and as it suits them, how is the next person to derive the intended meaning when the words have no common agreed meaning?
So if everyone makes up meanings of words as they go and as it suits them, how is the next person to derive the intended meaning when the words have no common agreed meaning?
Tawanda
Kapikinyu Rutendo Benson Matinyarare I urge you to
look for the comment ya Rose Mbanga paati I hope someone is
documenting it. I came to the thread supporting the fact that we need our own
narrative because there were some flaws in some work done by the s
of Michael Gelfand....this is what he had to say
Tawanda Kapikinyu what have you done about the narrative and interpretation?
Basa nderokuona kutadza kwemurungu.
Where are your works?
And I thought by sharing my thoughts at the platform I was actually doing something....isnt it the same as having an article in a newspaper?
It was really off... telling me not to comment unless I 'have done something myself'.
Kuti isu takanyora mumanewspaper saka nyarara...I failed to connect his dismissive response to what I had said.
Same as the guys who say unless wakaenda kuhondo you cant contribute to the deveopment yenyika. Same mentality to me.
Tawanda Kapikinyu what have you done about the narrative and interpretation?
Basa nderokuona kutadza kwemurungu.
Where are your works?
And I thought by sharing my thoughts at the platform I was actually doing something....isnt it the same as having an article in a newspaper?
It was really off... telling me not to comment unless I 'have done something myself'.
Kuti isu takanyora mumanewspaper saka nyarara...I failed to connect his dismissive response to what I had said.
Same as the guys who say unless wakaenda kuhondo you cant contribute to the deveopment yenyika. Same mentality to me.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Tawanda Kapikinyu you expressed hostility
to the idea that Bvumavaranda Technocrat quotes murungu
and I found it surprising that you would ordinarily dismiss his source without
being an agent of what you being
recorded.
Follow through my subsequent remarks on your "lamenting" if I may use the word.
Follow through my subsequent remarks on your "lamenting" if I may use the word.
Tawanda
Kapikinyu There was no hostility there. If I was hostlile I
would have done it you do. Kuti Gelfand
waunoita quote akadhakwa.
I simply stated that his works has flaws which need to be refined. You hadnt even read the comment in full because the way you were so quick to respond showed the characteristics of a someone who is always ready to say something rather than understand. Did you even read the comment and what it said??
I went in length to explain why we need to do it ourselves...imi tsvee makufungira ndauya kuzotuka Technocrat.
Very bad response that was.
I simply stated that his works has flaws which need to be refined. You hadnt even read the comment in full because the way you were so quick to respond showed the characteristics of a someone who is always ready to say something rather than understand. Did you even read the comment and what it said??
I went in length to explain why we need to do it ourselves...imi tsvee makufungira ndauya kuzotuka Technocrat.
Very bad response that was.
Charles
Tmj Dube Rutendo Benson Matinyarare If in our
communications we were to reserch the roots and origins of words, that would
make communication quite a burden. I assure you that with the exception of you
and your friend, all on this thread have a common usage of word and even
without going to its German and possible Greek roots.
Tawanda
Kapikinyu Rutendo Benson Matinyarare this was my
comment. Tell me where 1. I indicated that Gelfand murungu and 2. I was hostile
to Technocrat:
Would you know Gelfand was murungu from that comment???
"I have always argued that some narratives were lost in translation. I know Bvumavaranda Technocrat is a fan of Michael Gelfand but the level of misinterpretation in some of his work is appalling. I blame the interpreters though. Take for example, 'yave nyama yekugocha yowerere, yave nyama yekugocha, baya wabaya' Gelfand did a direct translation on that one and the meaning was lost on that one. I think he said 'it is now roast meat yowerere, it is now roast meat, kill kill'. I will check again, must be his 'Kurova Guva' paper. But if you look at that song it is simply trying to talk of a helpless situation where anyone is now doing as they (baya wabaya not baya baya). Now, for anyone reading Gelfand's narrative asingazive the song...they woul be horrified kuti how can these people sing about killing someone at a 'memorial' ceremony...they would quickly conclude that blacks were savages! Now if we let that narrative stick around for a few more generations without being corrected even our children and grandchildren will start to believe the long held narrative that we were savages. Even now, most of our people tend to think that we were 'civilized' by vapambepfumi because we are not correcting certain narratives especially from the people we think did a splendid job. Some traditions did not change a bit and we still have a chance to come up with a proper narrative."
Would you know Gelfand was murungu from that comment???
"I have always argued that some narratives were lost in translation. I know Bvumavaranda Technocrat is a fan of Michael Gelfand but the level of misinterpretation in some of his work is appalling. I blame the interpreters though. Take for example, 'yave nyama yekugocha yowerere, yave nyama yekugocha, baya wabaya' Gelfand did a direct translation on that one and the meaning was lost on that one. I think he said 'it is now roast meat yowerere, it is now roast meat, kill kill'. I will check again, must be his 'Kurova Guva' paper. But if you look at that song it is simply trying to talk of a helpless situation where anyone is now doing as they (baya wabaya not baya baya). Now, for anyone reading Gelfand's narrative asingazive the song...they woul be horrified kuti how can these people sing about killing someone at a 'memorial' ceremony...they would quickly conclude that blacks were savages! Now if we let that narrative stick around for a few more generations without being corrected even our children and grandchildren will start to believe the long held narrative that we were savages. Even now, most of our people tend to think that we were 'civilized' by vapambepfumi because we are not correcting certain narratives especially from the people we think did a splendid job. Some traditions did not change a bit and we still have a chance to come up with a proper narrative."
Charles
Tmj Dube Rutendo Benson Matinyarare Now you even
doubt if even we existed in the 8th century? By God I understand Mwari and I am
not into any other monority divergent narrative which does not add value to my
understanding of issues under discussion.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube your refusal to admit
that the word is only of 9th century and was imported into Christianity by
Germanic conquest is a sign you know what it leads to.
The truth is that Christianity had no and still doesn't have a word for a deity or divine because before "God," the word in use was a Latin one, "Deus," itself derived from Zeus. We know what Zeus stood for.
Kindly prove to me that without "Deus" (Theos) and "God," Christianity had a name of the divine.
The truth is that Christianity had no and still doesn't have a word for a deity or divine because before "God," the word in use was a Latin one, "Deus," itself derived from Zeus. We know what Zeus stood for.
Kindly prove to me that without "Deus" (Theos) and "God," Christianity had a name of the divine.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube is it cognitive
dissonance that you want to continue equating God and Mwari?
Charles
Tmj Dube I am not equating Mwari with God. I use Mwari and
God as two words which mean the same thing in two languages. I am not you and I
am not just about to be your copycat. What I know is that Christianity referred
to Jehovah as their God and their God in accordance to its everyday usage which
I use and has nothing to do with your "resaerched" origins of the
word. I am at peace with using it interchangeably with Mwari/ You might not,
but then, that is you. It's all about nomencluture in our current usage
independent of whether somebody is affixed to historical usage at one time or
another in the history of the world. The earth does not become something else
because at one stage in the history of man they thought it was flat. You play
around with words, Shingai Rukwata Ndoro, some of us play around
with meaning. It is a matter of emphasis and value.
Charles
Tmj Dube In the process you derail the whole intent of the
thread. I am sure in the end you have the estoric comprehending you and not
those just interested in thensubject matter under review.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube is this not a dogmatic
fixation with the word God when it doesn't mean what Mwari is?
God (Gott/Gauwd) is a Germanic mythical ancestor.
When has a Germanic mythical ancestor become a deity or divine?
God (Gott/Gauwd) is a Germanic mythical ancestor.
When has a Germanic mythical ancestor become a deity or divine?
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube this thread hasn't
derailed.
In a discussion, people can have a detour because a topic within a topic would need to be tackled first since it would be affecting the original topic.
In a discussion, people can have a detour because a topic within a topic would need to be tackled first since it would be affecting the original topic.
Wellington
Ziwenga The topic being you now?
Charles
Tmj Dube Shingai Rukwata Ndoro that is all to your
and those of your faith which we will not allow you to impose on us. The
majority here understand and use interchangeably with Mwari, same meaning, but
different langauges. I have heard this other root from just you and I will not
allow you to impose your worldview on me.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga I will not give any
more room to your personalization.
I have come to realise that faith-based intellectuals are always quick to make it a personal fight.
I'm used to the distractions.
I have come to realise that faith-based intellectuals are always quick to make it a personal fight.
I'm used to the distractions.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube the public square for
academic arguments is not a ramp for beauty pageants!
Wellington
Ziwenga I am the least religious person on ths platform
even the proudly religious Samaita Charles will attest to that.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Wellington Ziwenga I'm not even religious
and I don't have a single shred of respect for an academic who is faith-based.
He is just faith healers or tsikamutanda
to me.
Wellington
Ziwenga I do not know jesus and have no plans to everyone
here will tell you that. So don't worry about religion with me you are in safe
hands. I am proudly Afrikan. Do not worship anyone. Rather i honour my
ancestors/forefathers .
Charles
Tmj Dube Now, Shingai Rukwata Ndoro, I doubt if we could
only be dealing with prejudice here. I suspect megalomania instead.
Sepelong
Makwati Sebola Shingai as most of us blacks are you sound
very bitter towards missionaries and the trickery they did us using the bible
to tame us into submission. Deus, Gauwd either word used you must understand
history is usually written by victors and they write it in the best …See More
TRUENATION.WEBSITETOOLBOX.COM
Why Was
David called RED? or RUDDY? - True Nation Israelite…
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube I'm sure you suffer from
a acute type of cognitive dissonance and you need religion as a maladaptive
coping mechanism.
This is also for those of delusional disorder.
Religion is such a medication.
This is also for those of delusional disorder.
Religion is such a medication.
Charles
Tmj Dube In a world in which 90% could be religious, not a
bad idea. Interestinglyenough though, you are the one who seems to have
fixations with origin and meaning of words and adopting a belief system out of
it. This world is full of strange gods/religions. You are just describing
yourself. And you want us all to see the world in your lenses and accuse all
who think otherwise of proselytising? Pwipwipwi.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube I have never forced
anyone. I'm not you of a religion that
has the dripping of blood of my people through racism, slavery, colonialism and
apartheid.
This is the same religion whose deity is murderous, hateful, discriminatory, sexist, narcissist, and vengeful.
It's beneath my dignity as a human being and African to have affinity to such a Caucasian creature.
Oh please have such creature to yourself and those whom you share the affinity and affiliation.
This is the same religion whose deity is murderous, hateful, discriminatory, sexist, narcissist, and vengeful.
It's beneath my dignity as a human being and African to have affinity to such a Caucasian creature.
Oh please have such creature to yourself and those whom you share the affinity and affiliation.
Nicholas
Mangachena I happen to have missed source text the term
'GOD' Shingirai Rukwato Ndoro would you mind sharing again?
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Wellington Ziwenga How did I make a joke
out of you exactly?
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Charles Tmj Dube Who is this friend you
keep referring to?
The only people I know on this thread are Wellington Ziwenga, Tawanda Kapikinyu so who is this friend that you keep referring to?
The only people I know on this thread are Wellington Ziwenga, Tawanda Kapikinyu so who is this friend that you keep referring to?
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Charles Tmj Dube Its interesting that you
have done nothing to answer a simple question at the heart of our debate but
cast aspersions on me in a veiled attack.
Be that as it may:
Is God noun or name? That's all I want to know.
And when we say God, who are we referring to: Apollo, Zeus, Asclepius, Jehovah, Sumerious, Buddha, Allah, Mwari, Morena, Mulungu, Modemo, Lucifer? Who is God?
Be that as it may:
Is God noun or name? That's all I want to know.
And when we say God, who are we referring to: Apollo, Zeus, Asclepius, Jehovah, Sumerious, Buddha, Allah, Mwari, Morena, Mulungu, Modemo, Lucifer? Who is God?
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Charles Tmj Dube I didn't say I doubt
that we existed in 8th Century, I asked you if you can prove that it existed or
if we existed, just you are challenged
Shingai to prove that the name God didn't exist before 8th Century.
Who here is authoritative enough and has verification to dispute anyone else's assertions empirically?
Who here is authoritative enough and has verification to dispute anyone else's assertions empirically?
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Charles Tmj Dube Wellington Ziwenga just because you have
a narrative or you have one that's popular or common doesn't make you right?
For hundreds of years men and women in the minority were put to the stake as heretics for saying the earth was roun…See More
For hundreds of years men and women in the minority were put to the stake as heretics for saying the earth was roun…See More
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Shingai Rukwata Ndoro Well every
intellectual study in the world is in many ways faith belief in which we have
parameters and interpretations set by those who inform us of their beliefs
through their writings.
Most people study things that they themselves have never verified or discovered or things they define in the parameters and bounds set by the postulators of the theories, so we believe by faith in the books that we read. Your article that you wrote above is not empirical but based on faith belief of what you read from historians. For example can you prove that the coma exists and why it exists?
When I was at school there were nine planets, then at some point 10 and now we hear that Pluto is no longer a planet.
So do we really know anything outside what we are told? Are we even sure that there are planets out there, outside what someone tells us and this framework of human peer agreement that usually has not verification beyond the members of a discipline?
And when someone comes tomorrow and says actually there are no other planets and the sky we see today is an illusion, what do we say then?
The great fathers of mathematics, art, music, geometry, medicine all announced that their knowledge and their disciplines were spiritual/metaphysical undertakings and inspirations.
Some say, by Africans failing to recognize that all knowledge and innovation as metaphysical, is the reason most have qualifications that can't manifest anything tangible because they are missing epochal knowledge of essence and life.
So who are you to believe that faith believers lack academic muster when the greats were all faith believers?
Moreover, what is an academic?
Most people study things that they themselves have never verified or discovered or things they define in the parameters and bounds set by the postulators of the theories, so we believe by faith in the books that we read. Your article that you wrote above is not empirical but based on faith belief of what you read from historians. For example can you prove that the coma exists and why it exists?
When I was at school there were nine planets, then at some point 10 and now we hear that Pluto is no longer a planet.
So do we really know anything outside what we are told? Are we even sure that there are planets out there, outside what someone tells us and this framework of human peer agreement that usually has not verification beyond the members of a discipline?
And when someone comes tomorrow and says actually there are no other planets and the sky we see today is an illusion, what do we say then?
The great fathers of mathematics, art, music, geometry, medicine all announced that their knowledge and their disciplines were spiritual/metaphysical undertakings and inspirations.
Some say, by Africans failing to recognize that all knowledge and innovation as metaphysical, is the reason most have qualifications that can't manifest anything tangible because they are missing epochal knowledge of essence and life.
So who are you to believe that faith believers lack academic muster when the greats were all faith believers?
Moreover, what is an academic?
Wellington
Ziwenga I never claimed to be right. Right on what? What
are you on about?
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Rutendo Benson Matinyarare the term
"faith-based" was first used by Charles Tmj Dube to me on his wall when I
challenged his assertions in quoting the Bible when it's clearly not literally
and historically true.
He said he is a faith-based academic w…See More
He said he is a faith-based academic w…See More
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Rutendo Benson Matinyarare out of
interest who were the great thinkers who were faith-based if they were not
under the coercive force of the religious authority?
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Bertrand Russell (1919) also illuminates the
fact that the vast majority of people today do not think critically, or indeed
ethically.
He said: “The great majority of men and women, in ordinary times, pass through life without ever contemplating or c…See More
He said: “The great majority of men and women, in ordinary times, pass through life without ever contemplating or c…See More
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro 1. *W.E.B. Du Bois* advocated for the
“Talented Tenth” (“aristocracy of talent and character”).
He was one of the founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored Peoples (NAACP) and wrote an essay in 1903, which may be related to the birth of the African-American premier organisation, “Boule” (Sigma Pi Phi), in 1911.
Du Bois said one in ten black men should become leaders of their race in the world, through methods such as continuing their education, writing books, or becoming directly involved in social change. It later became the “Guiding Hundredth.”
“Men we shall have only as we make manhood the object of the work of the schools — intelligence, broad sympathy, knowledge of the world that was and is, and of the relation of men to it — this is the curriculum of that Higher Education which must underlie true life. On this foundation we may build bread winning, skill of hand and quickness of brain, with never a fear lest the child and man mistake the means of living for the object of life.”
He said blacks must develop “the Best of this race that they may guide the Mass away from the contamination and death of the Worst... The Talented Tenth of the Negro race must be made leaders of thought and missionaries of culture among their people.
"The Negro Race, all races, is going to be saved by its exceptional men. The problem of education then, among Negroes, must first of all deal with the "Talented Tenth." It is the problem of developing the best of this race that they may guide the Mass away from the contamination and death of the worst." – The Talented Tenth (1903).
He also wrote that “my own panacea of earlier day was flight of class from mass through the development of the Talented Tenth; but the power of this aristocracy of talent was to lie in its knowledge and character, not in its wealth.” – “Dusk of Dawn: An Essay Toward an Autobiography of a Race Concept” (1940).
Sigma Pi Phi is an organization that binds men of qualities, tastes and attainments into a “close, sacred, fraternal union that they might know the best of one another…and by concerted action bring about those things that seem best for all that cannot be accomplished by individual effort.”
2. *Confucius* advocated for the creation of a “Junzi” (an exemplary individual or “ethical nobility”) in “Analetics.” He believed that those who lead should not necessarily be those who are born to power, but rather those who merit leadership by their character and achievements.
He enumerated the qualities of the exemplary ruler who must possess five virtues: 1) benevolence, 2) righteousness, 3) propriety, 4) wisdom, and 5) trustworthiness.
The economic success of the Greater China (China, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and South Korea) has been associated with the influence of Confucianism at the core.
3. *Plato* advocated for the “philosopher-king” (“moral aristocracy”) in the book, “The Republic.”
“You must contrive for your rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well- ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life.
Whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs, poor and hungering after their own advantage, thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good, order there can never be; for they will be fighting about office, and the civil and domestic broils which thus arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole State.” – Plato, ‘The Republic,’ Book VII.
“When a democracy thirsting for freedom has evil cupbearers presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the strong wine of freedom, then, unless her rulers are very amenable and give a plentiful draught, she calls them to account and punishes them, and says that they are cursed oligarchs.” – Plato, ‘The Republic,’ Book VIII.
4. *Aristotle* advocated for a “middle class republic.”
“It is the middle citizens in a state who are the most secure: they neither covet, the poor, the possessions of others, nor do others covet theirs as the poor covet those of the rich. So they live without risk, not scheming and not being schemed against... Man without virtue is the most savage.”
He said, possession of the intellectual and moral virtues lead to the possession of adequate material goods. The intellectual virtues included knowledge, intuition, skill, prudence, and wisdom. The moral virtues include courage, temperance, generosity, and amiability.
5. *Francis Bacon* advocated for the “philosophic-elect” or “Merchants of Light” in the book, “New Atlantis.”
He called for an enlightened philanthropic fraternity or brotherhood in learning through which men can exchange knowledge and help one another.
“And surely, as nature createth brotherhood in families, and arts mechanical contract, brotherhoods in commonalities, and the anointment of the Divine superinduceth a brotherhood in kings and bishops; so in manner there cannot but be a fraternity in learning and illumination, relating to that paternity which is attributed to (the Divine), who is called the Father of illuminations or lights (dedicated to James 1) – ‘Advancement of Learning’ (1605), Book II.
In his fictional work, Nova Atlantis (‘New Atlantis’), Bacon depicted “a republic headed by an (initiatory fraternity) consisting entirely of intellectuals from the fields of both letters and sciences.
The members of this order, who called each other brother, devoted themselves in complete freedom to philosophical discussion and to working to improve the conditions of the lower classes and advance true religion and morality.”
Bacon said the pursuit of politics becomes a destructive bedlam when divorced from science and philosophy, in other words from rationality and higher purpose of life. He saw an ideal Government, as one in which was benevolent without the worst excesses of despotism by rulers or by the majority.
Seventeenth century essayist, Royal advisor and head of the translating team of the King James Version of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, Francis Bacon in his book, New Atlantis, called such kind of people “Merchants of Light” – “individuals whose job it is to traverse the world for intellectual treasures and to bring them back to share, and to create repositories of knowledge and learning.”
"Merchants of Light" (MoL) are daring, see into the dark unknown and travel into the tunnel at the end of the light. Four centuries after Bacon wrote about the Merchants of Light, Marshall McLuhan, drew a valuable distinction between learning and knowing. All work would become “paid learning,” said McLuhan, which has come to pass.
Leaders, then, have to distinguish themselves by knowing. Imagination is knowing, sensing, suspecting, and seeing into the darkness where all new things begin, just as our world was born out of darkness. McLuhan himself said that light was the purest form of knowledge. Having no characteristics itself, it enables others to see. To be a "merchant of light" is to have few limits and vast advantages. It is to be able to penetrate everywhere, even darkness, and be bound by nothing.
More information can be found here, ://www.kufaragwenzi.blogspot.com/.../locating-and...
The principle of Fabianism is found here, ://www.kufaragwenzi.blogspot.com/.../the-power-of-ideas...
He was one of the founders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored Peoples (NAACP) and wrote an essay in 1903, which may be related to the birth of the African-American premier organisation, “Boule” (Sigma Pi Phi), in 1911.
Du Bois said one in ten black men should become leaders of their race in the world, through methods such as continuing their education, writing books, or becoming directly involved in social change. It later became the “Guiding Hundredth.”
“Men we shall have only as we make manhood the object of the work of the schools — intelligence, broad sympathy, knowledge of the world that was and is, and of the relation of men to it — this is the curriculum of that Higher Education which must underlie true life. On this foundation we may build bread winning, skill of hand and quickness of brain, with never a fear lest the child and man mistake the means of living for the object of life.”
He said blacks must develop “the Best of this race that they may guide the Mass away from the contamination and death of the Worst... The Talented Tenth of the Negro race must be made leaders of thought and missionaries of culture among their people.
"The Negro Race, all races, is going to be saved by its exceptional men. The problem of education then, among Negroes, must first of all deal with the "Talented Tenth." It is the problem of developing the best of this race that they may guide the Mass away from the contamination and death of the worst." – The Talented Tenth (1903).
He also wrote that “my own panacea of earlier day was flight of class from mass through the development of the Talented Tenth; but the power of this aristocracy of talent was to lie in its knowledge and character, not in its wealth.” – “Dusk of Dawn: An Essay Toward an Autobiography of a Race Concept” (1940).
Sigma Pi Phi is an organization that binds men of qualities, tastes and attainments into a “close, sacred, fraternal union that they might know the best of one another…and by concerted action bring about those things that seem best for all that cannot be accomplished by individual effort.”
2. *Confucius* advocated for the creation of a “Junzi” (an exemplary individual or “ethical nobility”) in “Analetics.” He believed that those who lead should not necessarily be those who are born to power, but rather those who merit leadership by their character and achievements.
He enumerated the qualities of the exemplary ruler who must possess five virtues: 1) benevolence, 2) righteousness, 3) propriety, 4) wisdom, and 5) trustworthiness.
The economic success of the Greater China (China, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and South Korea) has been associated with the influence of Confucianism at the core.
3. *Plato* advocated for the “philosopher-king” (“moral aristocracy”) in the book, “The Republic.”
“You must contrive for your rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well- ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life.
Whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs, poor and hungering after their own advantage, thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good, order there can never be; for they will be fighting about office, and the civil and domestic broils which thus arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole State.” – Plato, ‘The Republic,’ Book VII.
“When a democracy thirsting for freedom has evil cupbearers presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the strong wine of freedom, then, unless her rulers are very amenable and give a plentiful draught, she calls them to account and punishes them, and says that they are cursed oligarchs.” – Plato, ‘The Republic,’ Book VIII.
4. *Aristotle* advocated for a “middle class republic.”
“It is the middle citizens in a state who are the most secure: they neither covet, the poor, the possessions of others, nor do others covet theirs as the poor covet those of the rich. So they live without risk, not scheming and not being schemed against... Man without virtue is the most savage.”
He said, possession of the intellectual and moral virtues lead to the possession of adequate material goods. The intellectual virtues included knowledge, intuition, skill, prudence, and wisdom. The moral virtues include courage, temperance, generosity, and amiability.
5. *Francis Bacon* advocated for the “philosophic-elect” or “Merchants of Light” in the book, “New Atlantis.”
He called for an enlightened philanthropic fraternity or brotherhood in learning through which men can exchange knowledge and help one another.
“And surely, as nature createth brotherhood in families, and arts mechanical contract, brotherhoods in commonalities, and the anointment of the Divine superinduceth a brotherhood in kings and bishops; so in manner there cannot but be a fraternity in learning and illumination, relating to that paternity which is attributed to (the Divine), who is called the Father of illuminations or lights (dedicated to James 1) – ‘Advancement of Learning’ (1605), Book II.
In his fictional work, Nova Atlantis (‘New Atlantis’), Bacon depicted “a republic headed by an (initiatory fraternity) consisting entirely of intellectuals from the fields of both letters and sciences.
The members of this order, who called each other brother, devoted themselves in complete freedom to philosophical discussion and to working to improve the conditions of the lower classes and advance true religion and morality.”
Bacon said the pursuit of politics becomes a destructive bedlam when divorced from science and philosophy, in other words from rationality and higher purpose of life. He saw an ideal Government, as one in which was benevolent without the worst excesses of despotism by rulers or by the majority.
Seventeenth century essayist, Royal advisor and head of the translating team of the King James Version of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, Francis Bacon in his book, New Atlantis, called such kind of people “Merchants of Light” – “individuals whose job it is to traverse the world for intellectual treasures and to bring them back to share, and to create repositories of knowledge and learning.”
"Merchants of Light" (MoL) are daring, see into the dark unknown and travel into the tunnel at the end of the light. Four centuries after Bacon wrote about the Merchants of Light, Marshall McLuhan, drew a valuable distinction between learning and knowing. All work would become “paid learning,” said McLuhan, which has come to pass.
Leaders, then, have to distinguish themselves by knowing. Imagination is knowing, sensing, suspecting, and seeing into the darkness where all new things begin, just as our world was born out of darkness. McLuhan himself said that light was the purest form of knowledge. Having no characteristics itself, it enables others to see. To be a "merchant of light" is to have few limits and vast advantages. It is to be able to penetrate everywhere, even darkness, and be bound by nothing.
More information can be found here, ://www.kufaragwenzi.blogspot.com/.../locating-and...
The principle of Fabianism is found here, ://www.kufaragwenzi.blogspot.com/.../the-power-of-ideas...
KUFARAGWENZI.BLOGSPOT.COM
Locating and
Producing the "Talented Tenth" of the African-Americans
Charles
Tmj Dube You should be strange. Apart from crowding out
somebody's thread with yours, you also try and crowd out others' arguments through
claims on what they could have said outside the thread under discussion,
together with whatever you "know" about such peop…See More
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Rutendo Benson Matinyarare I don't agree
that "every intellectual study in the world is in many ways faith
belief..."
I take it that an intellectual study starts with a hypothesis and assumptions and people pursue it to seek evidence relentlessly.
I take it that an intellectual study starts with a hypothesis and assumptions and people pursue it to seek evidence relentlessly.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube your invectiveness
directed at me will take us nowhere except destroying the little shred of the
civility between us.
Get off that horse of anger.
Get off that horse of anger.
Charles
Tmj Dube Rutendo Benson Matinyarare When I say
your friend, I mean in this discussion only. If you look closely, you will
realise that you are answered. The thing is the heart of our discussion is this
thread and not any additional unrelated themes that do not …See More
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube I have never and ever
will impose my affinities on anyone including my children.
Your falsehoods should be tempered with decency and civility.
You are free to take the thread back to its original topic. Hauna kurambidzwa.
Don't lie about me!
Your falsehoods should be tempered with decency and civility.
You are free to take the thread back to its original topic. Hauna kurambidzwa.
Don't lie about me!
Charles
Tmj Dube But you have been trying to make people to use the
word god through your understanding? Can you tell me one falsehood I have said
in a civil or uncivil manner? Why is it necessary to be confrontational? I am
just politely telling you that you argue at variance with the spirit and
intent of whoever will have posted their own thread and in the process display
an unwaranted air of know-it-all and shout from some kind of pedestal. It is
not necessary. In civilised discourse, you should start from points of
agreement and add your buts afterwards. And yet here yours are not even buts,
but a superimposition of the strange ideas you hold on to from another
civilisation. I would advise you to open a separate thread and invite people to
it other than to derail somebody's thread with your unrelated one. You write a possessed man with an incomprehessible
passion and rigidity. If you went back to this thread, you will be amazed to
discover that there is no argument between you and me and yet you have gone to
town and used all the possible vitriol in the world. I have simply asserted
that whether your comments are correct or false, they do not add value to this
thread. I have also said where people are discussing a subject of interest, it
does not add value to bring in old usages of words even if such old usages or
origins are of no material value to the subject under discussion. Even links to
your articles were not bringing in new additional dimensions.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube it's a lie that I have
imposed my views on anyone.
On the use of the word God, I have said you are free to do it while there is evidence to the contrary.
Even Dark Ages had defenders and there are some who wish it comes back.
On the use of the word God, I have said you are free to do it while there is evidence to the contrary.
Even Dark Ages had defenders and there are some who wish it comes back.
Charles
Tmj Dube Just check on this thread and see how many times
you were condemning usage of the word god in its common everyday usage that is
unrelated to your marine world one. And now you think you are better than all
those languages speakers who have accepted to use the word god in the
manner that they do, and that just because you got another usage from
somewhere? And if I were to ask you, what exact argument are you having with
me? You have mentioned my name several times.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube "condemn"
isn't a correct word.
I made numerous submissions on the inappropriateness of the word God for the discussion of this thread.
I will restate that God is a mythical Germanic ancestor and has nothing to do with non-Germans.
If you want to perpetuate the falsehoods about it, by any means go ahead.
Where possible I will not stop reminding you.
That's not a condemnation. That's not an imposition.
I made numerous submissions on the inappropriateness of the word God for the discussion of this thread.
I will restate that God is a mythical Germanic ancestor and has nothing to do with non-Germans.
If you want to perpetuate the falsehoods about it, by any means go ahead.
Where possible I will not stop reminding you.
That's not a condemnation. That's not an imposition.
Charles
Tmj Dube Your understanding was privy to yourself and so
marooning a whole discussion because you have some new "revelation"
which distorts people's perceptions on something they use on a day to day basis
is imposition. Besides your reminder will not be sought after as these are
no linguist classes. Most inventions have been named after things that existed
before. They do not lose their identity just because their name used to belong
to something else. Just a fixation on
Saturn would not deral us from scheduling us for a meeting on Saturday because
that was a Greek god and therefore there is no day Saturday.
Charles
Tmj Dube Just for interest's sake, what have you been
arguing about with me and what was my argument and yours?
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Shingai Rukwata Ndoro which science is
not a religious undertaking?
Western Medicine is the worship and belief in Asclepius who taught Hippocrates the practice of medicine. Hence the Hippocratic oath [prayer] in medicine and the use of the rod of Asclepius and caduceus as symbols, just Christians use the cross.
Western Medicine is spiritually inspired just African medicine was inspired by spiritual enlightenment too.
Pharmacy is the worship of Hygenia and Panacea and hence the same Hippocratic oath as well and the use of the Bowl of Hygenia.
Accounting and economics is tribute to Apollo the god of commerce.
Why is this the case? Why do you think some cultures excelled at these things more than others? Is it simple intelligence? No!!! It's enlightenment and revelation of certain knowledge by spiritual entities, hence europeans talk of discoveries, inspirations, light bulb moments, illumination and enlightenment.
What is behind the inspiration, illuminations and enlightenments? Is the term science not a product of the enlightenment itself?
Think about it, you will realize that in our African culture we have inexplicable constructions that till today man can't explain how they were constructed by mere man: the Great Zimbabwe ruins and 28 other ruins in Zimbabwe; Pyramids, Steales, stone designs found in Africa.......Whence do they come and why have they not been termed scientific products? Why can't science explain them?
Explain to me how someone sitting under a tree, sees and apple fall and then all of a sudden they can explain that it fell because it was pulled to the ground by something called gravity? How did he know of this gravity yet he couldn't observe it? Or someone explaining relativity without ever having been into space? And contrast that with Dugons who drew the entire solar system and calendar sequence without telescopes to have observed the universe.
Is one of the central mantras of science not observation and experimentation over time? Who observed and experimented with how the world came into being for us to have a scientific explanation of how existence began?
Western Medicine is the worship and belief in Asclepius who taught Hippocrates the practice of medicine. Hence the Hippocratic oath [prayer] in medicine and the use of the rod of Asclepius and caduceus as symbols, just Christians use the cross.
Western Medicine is spiritually inspired just African medicine was inspired by spiritual enlightenment too.
Pharmacy is the worship of Hygenia and Panacea and hence the same Hippocratic oath as well and the use of the Bowl of Hygenia.
Accounting and economics is tribute to Apollo the god of commerce.
Why is this the case? Why do you think some cultures excelled at these things more than others? Is it simple intelligence? No!!! It's enlightenment and revelation of certain knowledge by spiritual entities, hence europeans talk of discoveries, inspirations, light bulb moments, illumination and enlightenment.
What is behind the inspiration, illuminations and enlightenments? Is the term science not a product of the enlightenment itself?
Think about it, you will realize that in our African culture we have inexplicable constructions that till today man can't explain how they were constructed by mere man: the Great Zimbabwe ruins and 28 other ruins in Zimbabwe; Pyramids, Steales, stone designs found in Africa.......Whence do they come and why have they not been termed scientific products? Why can't science explain them?
Explain to me how someone sitting under a tree, sees and apple fall and then all of a sudden they can explain that it fell because it was pulled to the ground by something called gravity? How did he know of this gravity yet he couldn't observe it? Or someone explaining relativity without ever having been into space? And contrast that with Dugons who drew the entire solar system and calendar sequence without telescopes to have observed the universe.
Is one of the central mantras of science not observation and experimentation over time? Who observed and experimented with how the world came into being for us to have a scientific explanation of how existence began?
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Shingai Rukwata Ndoro Plato, Pythagorus,
Archemidis, Hippocrates, Im Hotep, Adam Smith, Alexandra Bell, Charles Mendel,
Socrates, Fibernacci, Nicholi Tesla, Steve Jobs, Alexander Bell they are
endless.
And most belonged to secret, spiritual societies and fraternities.
And most belonged to secret, spiritual societies and fraternities.
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Shingai Rukwata Ndoro
*Sic* "I take it that an intellectual study starts with a hypothesis and assumptions and people pursue it to seek evidence relentlessly."
Have the causes of cancer been proved?
Has it been proved that illness is physical and not spiritual?
Have chemicals been proved to be non-spiritual manifestation?
Has science proved itself not to be a spiritual undertaking?
*Sic* "I take it that an intellectual study starts with a hypothesis and assumptions and people pursue it to seek evidence relentlessly."
Have the causes of cancer been proved?
Has it been proved that illness is physical and not spiritual?
Have chemicals been proved to be non-spiritual manifestation?
Has science proved itself not to be a spiritual undertaking?
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Rutendo Benson Matinyarare I'm with you
all the way on your characterization and if you check my wall you will notice
the multiple gnostic nuggets.
I'm with you in the sense our "spiritual" ("mysteries" in ancient Egypt) knowledge system was not literalist and historical.
The Greek word for knowledge is "gnosis" while the Latin source of the word "science" is knowledge.
It was and is religion which is hostile to all what you have said.
It may be something familiar to you that Christianity began in the first and second centuries as a gnostic initiative until the Roman-aligned charlatans and hate mongers brutally went after Gnostics to make it the literalist of what it is today.
You may also be aware that the whole scriptures are better viewed using the prism of PARDES and Genesis 1:1-2 is gnostically, "The beginning is in the dark chaos of spontaneous potentiality. Potentiality is the infinite energy field and it manifests itself as a primordial seed floating in the chaotic waters and the deep abyss."
Majority of those you mentioned are products of initiation of the greater mysteries of ancient Egypt.
I'm with you in the sense our "spiritual" ("mysteries" in ancient Egypt) knowledge system was not literalist and historical.
The Greek word for knowledge is "gnosis" while the Latin source of the word "science" is knowledge.
It was and is religion which is hostile to all what you have said.
It may be something familiar to you that Christianity began in the first and second centuries as a gnostic initiative until the Roman-aligned charlatans and hate mongers brutally went after Gnostics to make it the literalist of what it is today.
You may also be aware that the whole scriptures are better viewed using the prism of PARDES and Genesis 1:1-2 is gnostically, "The beginning is in the dark chaos of spontaneous potentiality. Potentiality is the infinite energy field and it manifests itself as a primordial seed floating in the chaotic waters and the deep abyss."
Majority of those you mentioned are products of initiation of the greater mysteries of ancient Egypt.
Charles
Tmj Dube Rutendo Benson Matinyarare You click with
me after all. So where and what was the difference. I could spend an afternoon
with you. Kudos to you! Pwipwipwi.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Rutendo Benson Matinyarare Dark Ages was
a weapon of the Christians against deep knowledge (gnosis) and the Gnostics
went underground up to this day.
Wellington
Ziwenga This is nothing but a show off of who knows better
than the other. Sickening! We share knowledge here lads if you are so knowledgeable
why not just start your own page. The post is not about learning tactics or
semantics so let's stick to it.
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Wellington Ziwenga So have you learnt
nothing in the exchange here?
Wellington
Ziwenga I will leave you to conclude
Charles
Tmj Dube Rutendo Benson Matinyarare You see,
Rutendo, it is not about whether there is new knowledge coming up. It is about
its relevance to the subject under discussion. If I ask you about what time the
meeting will be tomorrow and then you tell me about the solar system and how
the earth revolves around the sun and rotates around its axis, there will
certainly be new knowledge. But in intellectual discourse, there are also
guiidelines for intellectual exchange. It's not about displaying what else we
know. In your case however, you were being charitable to Shingai who was up to
his usual displays and so wont blame you. Am sure Wellington is not blaming you
either, but is just making a point.
Shingai
Rukwata Ndoro Charles Tmj Dube you see you make
statements whose terms are contestable and you want everyone to say
"amen"?
Any thread will have sub-topics or topics within a topic no matter that.
Get used.
Any thread will have sub-topics or topics within a topic no matter that.
Get used.
Charles
Tmj Dube Shingai, am sure you are not about to teach me how
to make an intellectual construct. I have had the benefit of going to school. I
am here talking of what are termed Arrow's priciples and if you can find the
above comment contestable, then you surely have problems. You would never make
up for a first class student but sail through because your professors become
charitable and sail you through for effort and hard work, but not intellect.
Rutendo
Benson Matinyarare Charles Tmj Dube I get you but I think
debates evolve as analysis on the separate facts deepens.
I don't see anything above that is irrelevant to the initial debate.
I don't see anything above that is irrelevant to the initial debate.
Charles
Tmj Dube So what is the debate now and how does it relate
to the original thread? When the word god was introduced into the Bible?
Caucasian god and or Abrahamic God who is different from Mwari? What exactly is
this debate which has generated over 130 comments and what has it added to the
original thread? Whay new insights has it brought to the subject of impartation
of power whether through masvikiro or the Holy Spirit?
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Shami Fred, the born again would mess up the
discussion with zealotry and munotukwa mukabva chiri kumeso especially now
mwedzi uri mutete! Remember the meaning of lunacy - its related to the phases
of the moon. Ukanzwa vakaranga vachiti "mutete" vanenge vatopedza
newe. Lunar-cy!
Shami
Fred And that's scientifically proven too.
Shami
Fred The zealots don't bother me at all. A few are well
read. The rest are zealots for the sake of it
Bvumavaranda Technocrat It is the the
brainless zealot that we have to fear the most. It is not possible to
rationally talk to people with nothing but water between the ears.
Sepelong
Makwati Sebola I am a Christian but same time I hold of
high regard of my own African history and believe there is a very strong link
between Christianity and some African beliefs. World over only in Africa we
find so many cultural practices with strong spiritual mystries
Madzivire
Mavata I am a born again Christian, pentecostal , tongue
speaking, fiery no nonsense preacher, but handina kumbotuka munhu, maybe mwedzi
hauzi mutete.
Charles
Tmj Dube Pwipwipwi. Zvikara izvi bodo!
Madzivire
Mavata There is a whole mythology of "RAMBOTEMWA"
or ''Sacred Forests/Hills'' our environmental curriculum
(geography,science,conservation) have not even dared to mention.
Madzivire
Mavata These Marambakutemwa were guarded by ''holy
spirits'' and in order to conquer them, the white people defiled the shrines so
that spirits departed and thus weaken black power.
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe They don't leave! They go into remission
waiting for their sons and daughters to wake up and do the right things and
they then come back to do their THINGS! #Madzivire
Madzivire
Mavata I agree with you Sir Hungwe
Wilberforce Nyamutsika We had very
serious conservative methods. Traditional healers removed medicinal barks from
East and West. That saved the tree from withering.
Endangered species pangolins were only eaten by chiefs. Those who lived far from the chief's dzimbabwe would just leave them in there natural inhabitants thus conserving them
Endangered species pangolins were only eaten by chiefs. Those who lived far from the chief's dzimbabwe would just leave them in there natural inhabitants thus conserving them
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe About gomo revasikana, #Spiwe,
refer to the disappearance of the two girls vana vaTichaendepi Masaya in the
eastern Highlands!
Spiwe
N Harper I remember that sad event which must be the
hardest for any parent to endure. The Masayas had just back from abroad and the
gvt despatched helicopters to try and help locate the girls but they were never
found, not even their remains. I wonder if perhaps they fell into a deep gorge?
Was it one daughter or two? All along I thought it was one. Shame hey, the poor
family!
Sidney
Taruvinga Spiwe N Harper: It was two of them. No
information yet on these two. I am sure they were cautioned not to mourn. But
being "civilised" they may have mourned and the consequences of mourning
are dire.
Rose
Mbanga Spiwe, there were 2 daughters, I believe their
mom left Harare for good and went to find a teaching job at St. David's High
School , Bonda which is close to Nyanga...close to where her babies
disappeared. Then there were others who said their disappearance was related to
an issue of ngozi etc .. you know how people always chit chat, I can't imagine
how those parents feel, too painful.
Wellington
Ziwenga Masaya refused to perform traditional rites because
he does/did not subscribe to primitive belief systems.
Sidney
Taruvinga Wellington Ziwenga: ndopakarasika nyaya. Maybe
they will appear sometime. People can't just vanish.
Spiwe
N Harper He refused to do what??? Wellington? I'm speechless. Much as I don't
subscribe to such, where the life of any of my children is concerned I'd do
what ever is suggested if that gives me even the slightest bit of hope of
saving their lives.
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe #Wellington and #Spiwe. Yes
it was two, Ruva and Tsitsi. They were lost in the mountains and (I don't know
how to say this) Dr Masaya (a black man) refused to go kuchivanhu while the
wife Diana (a white woman) wanted to go kuvakuru vechivanhu. Once there is
disagreements nothing works. I respected Dr Masaya before then, but he
disappointed me there. I think Diana Masaya must have been crushed!
Mhoze
Chikowero Chiwashira Elder Credo Mutwa has things to say
about those sorts of disappearances. He was a victim himself.
Chana
Chiya Chevhu "The Bermuda Triangle & Japan's
Devil's Sea are considered anomalies, where unexplained phenomena occur, such
as disappearing ships & planes, & radios & compasses that stop
working.
Why are ancient Megaliths placed at specific equidistant points, such as Mohenjo-Daro, Cairo, Peru, Easter Island, Zimbabwe, and Borneo, to name a few. Why are Positive Energy Vortices, such as in the Himalayas, Sedona (AZ), & the Incan culture situated where they are?"
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/.../esp_mapa...
Why are ancient Megaliths placed at specific equidistant points, such as Mohenjo-Daro, Cairo, Peru, Easter Island, Zimbabwe, and Borneo, to name a few. Why are Positive Energy Vortices, such as in the Himalayas, Sedona (AZ), & the Incan culture situated where they are?"
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/.../esp_mapa...
Chana
Chiya Chevhu I thought twunyaya twema disappearances was
just myths until science actually proved certain regions, including Zimbabwe,
have what they call vile vortices where they can't explain why weird things
occur including disappearances.
Charles
Tmj Dube Mhoze Chikowero Bring him
Spiwe
N Harper Chana Chiya Chevhu wakambonzwa here nezve
Bermuda Triangle?
Spiwe
N Harper Oh sorry Chana Chiya Chevhu I hadn't read pamusoro
apo where you mention the Bermuda Triangle and other places
Chana
Chiya Chevhu No worries.
Mhoze
Chikowero Chiwashira You can start here, Charles Tmj
Dube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4apWOUNOx64
YOUTUBE.COM
David Icke
& Credo Mutwa -- The Reptilian Agenda (Part One)
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Madzivire Mavata, Rambotemwa is actually Ramba
kutemwa in short form!
Sidney
Taruvinga Spiwe N Harper: There is another sacred hill
in Kupwanya village, Mutasa by the road to Nyanga next to Matsaira store. A
daughter of mine (then aged about 14 in 1990) and her friend went up hill in
the afternoon to gather goats. They went a bit further than allowed and
then things started happening. They saw a different world; green trees and
valleys, fruits and all nice things. They started eating and going further and
further the hill. Elders started looking for these 2 when it was getting dark
around 6pm. They went up the hill and one elderly old man went further and
conducted the necessary rituals. They found the girls and brought them back
after 8pm. They were cautioned not to tell the story. We only got to know about
this in 2015
Spiwe
N Harper 😳😳😳 Really? This makes some very
interesting story, more so because the people who experienced it are alive and
can tell it in their own words. Bvumavaranda hanzvadzi yedu iyi Shami should try and interview these
young ladies and document their experiences for posterity, handiti nhai va
Taruvinga?
Munhu
Mudzingwa MaTwins aMaisisri handiti vachiko?
Sidney
Taruvinga Spiwe: Sure, the girls are there.
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Our traditional copyright act was simple and
easy to implement/enforce. SILENCE!
The moment you publicise something, forget about ownership/copyright. The silence of the functionary who "recovered" those girls is a secret he will pass on to a chosen one, either face-to-face or in dreams! Copyrights are a way of making money and we Afrikans never heard such laws, zviera-era were the copyright laws!
The moment you publicise something, forget about ownership/copyright. The silence of the functionary who "recovered" those girls is a secret he will pass on to a chosen one, either face-to-face or in dreams! Copyrights are a way of making money and we Afrikans never heard such laws, zviera-era were the copyright laws!
Madzivire
Mavata Alone, I once sank into soil to waist level but
grabbed a tree's roots, for using metal tin to fetch water from a sacred
fountain. Got free, but elders warned me not to tell, else nexttime I go 4good
Spiwe
N Harper My mind screams quicksand
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Yes its quicksand that's why it was a
forbidden water source! Afrika used taboos to control vana musorobhangu! Who
would want mamota by sitting on the path/road?
Madzivire
Mavata I know quicksand, it wasn't. We have always fetched
water at the Nyamutamba pond in dry season because it never dried. I used the
foot path, I was held by the ankles and pulled down into the ground.
Cde
Gabarinocheka Mbofana I believe such stuff. Even in the
bible the Egyptian wizards turned sticks into snakes moses did
Bvumavaranda Technocrat I have a
simple request, my wonderful friends and relatives. Rather than nest our
contributions, as Facebook suggests, would it not be better if we put them
where they are easily seen by everyone? I think Sekuru Vatj Hungwe has previously made
the same suggestion.
Rose
Mbanga I have read more from what people have contributed
here than I imagined with regards to these mysterious events, totally agree,
put them on a page for all to see.
Munhu
Mudzingwa Dendere ririkupi Moyo Bvumavaranda Technocrat?
Sidney
Taruvinga Bvumavaranda Technocrat: that would be better
bro. Maybe open a group webpage and write ups could be deposited there.
Sidney
Taruvinga Nice. It can also be called "Vanhu"
without "chi" . kkkkkk
Munhu
Mudzingwa Or Hunhu without any pre fix!
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Mhofu Mudzingwa Munhu, the domain name HUNHU is already
taken.
Munhu
Mudzingwa tinemavariations moyo. Ana chari naana Nyandoro
vanga vakavata tichitorerwa madormain nhai?
Munhu
Mudzingwa Handei neyavepo!
Mohammad Ali Chatonda No guys I know
good ideas are exciting but this is not the way to get started. You are killing
the project before it even gets started!!!
Munhu
Mudzingwa Chisvunudza Ese Mapenzi please bip me
before Christmass. I will call you back. We need to talk. +1 780 975 1576.
Sidney
Taruvinga Ideas and stories are ly to come from far and
wide of the Munhumutapa Empire. The name should embrace the people of this
region. Munhu / Muntu / Vanhu / Bantu.....interesting
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
Anu -
Wikipedia
Mohammad Ali Chatonda Bumavaranda
Technocrat, this is a good idea. Give me a call, I think it is time.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Send me your
phone number via my inbox.
Munhu
Mudzingwa Missed you Chisvunudza Ese Mapenzi! WTFHYB?
Munhu
Mudzingwa Missed your ideas.!
Mohammad Ali Chatonda Remember Sekuru
ndinombofa ndichimuka. Bvumavaranda Technocrat inganga, but haasi kuda
kunditemera Nyora kuti ndipore, just came from Cuba what a beautiful memorial
for Fidel!!!
Munhu
Mudzingwa Now When you see a from me for that means I really you! Thank you for representing our people!
Fidel is my Friend and hero! Thanks Frank!
Sidney
Taruvinga MHDSRIP. Ndimi makatibatira basa
kumhiri.....tozvitenda.
Julius Sai Mutinhima-Dewa Nice one
Mondizvo. That miracle of making waters of the river part seems in fact to have
been a repeat occurence. Ndimirwa, an ancestress of the Harava and a greater
aunt of ours is said to have made the River Manyame part when she was crossing
to join her husband Seke.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat We have had
miracles all the critical times, have we not, Moyo?
Sidney
Taruvinga What is the language used by the passengers (the
lady and gent) ing Matavire in this clip.
Julius Sai Mutinhima-Dewa Pfumbi
Munhu
Mudzingwa Dialect.....dialect....not language.
Sepelong
Makwati Sebola sounds almost Kalanga
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Chipfumbi is a dialect. It is Mberengwa
Karanga with influences from chiChan'ana (shangaan) and venda! Plus chiremba
thrown in for good measure. Japota nejinga - dzapota negomo (cattle or goats)!
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Very musical to listen to¡
Madzivire
Mavata Mutauro wekwaMaranda
Sidney
Taruvinga "Jinga"; "bambo" is also
Manyika !
Saunyama
Mheta Busi Khumalo learn something. Your bible is a
plagiarism of our African pagan religion.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Kakakakakakakakaka,
imitating people who have been cleverly imitating our ancestors; no?
Bvumavaranda Technocrat If MaMoyo
Ndimirwa did this, surely it must have been fairly recent, Bvumavaranda Julius Sai Mutinhima-Dewa. There is hope that
one day someone good at keeping such knowledge carefully guarded will be given
the task of stewardship.
Julius Sai Mutinhima-Dewa Yes that's
very correct. That's actually a 19th century story vakoma.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Kakakakakakaka; Chisvunudza Ese Mapenzi, you are one of the
people to call me a n'anga. The other one who calls by no other name but that
of n'anga is the mother of one of my best friends. The funniest part is that I
am not a n'anga even by the wildest of wild imaginations. I am only a curious nobody.
Munhu
Mudzingwa Haiwawo! Sekuru Moyo vanonetsa kuzvininipisa!
KoN"anga svinu dzikasa zvipembedza tozoziva zvipi!
Maka
Kwayedza Moyo Bvumavaranda you could ascend to the
Stool from our ageing Sekuru Vusamazulu CREDO MUTWA as the Sanussi of the
Southern House of Afuraka...
Mohammad Ali Chatonda Ukuramba
Midzimu muningina pfeka munenga chete tiridze ngoma!!!
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Ndakagadzwa
parupasa ndichiri ndumurwa. Ndinongoyeuka vanhu vachiimba nekuridza mhururu,
apa ndaive ndakangotarisa kuti chiiko chacho chaive chichiitika.
Munhu
Mudzingwa Nguwo hadzirambwi!
Munhu
Mudzingwa Tsvimbo hadzirambwi! Dzinouya dzoga!
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Varidzi vacho
vanozvarwa vakadzipakatira, Mhofu Mudzingwa Munhu.
Munhu
Mudzingwa Zvamakapakatira mazviita zvishoma here Moyo Bvumavaranda Technocrat?
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Vukama habwugezwi nesipo sesvina.
Hunoshandurwa nekuwanirana chete kwete nerufu! Baba vangu vakafa asi vachiri
baba vangu. Kudza bambo namai vako kuti ugare nguva refu panyika. Izvi
zvinoitika nokuti bambo namai vanokuchengeta vari vapenyu. Vagokuchengeta vafa,
Hausundi!
Charles
Tmj Dube Interesting narrative and discussion. Remember
though that similarities are bound to be found especially between the Hebrews
and Africans. Some DNA tests conducted especially in Eastern and Southern
Africa would seem to suggest a common ancentry between Hebrews and Hebrews.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Indeed,
Mkumbudzi Charles Tmj Dube. The similarities are just
about everywhere. There is a story here.
Charles
Tmj Dube (Deu 32:8) The Most High assigned nations their
lands; he determined where peoples should live. He assigned to each nation a
heavenly being,
(Deu 32:9) but Jacob's descendants he chose for himself.
(Deu 32:9) but Jacob's descendants he chose for himself.
Charles
Tmj Dube That happens to be one of my favourite scriptures
and if you google it up you will discover that the translation has largely been
tempered with in most versions. That scripture implies every nationality had a
heavenly being assigned to it, which would explain why narratives would be
bound to get similar.
Terence
Ngwerume I don't know where to start. We must assume from
the above that there is a certain ontological arrangement in the universe.
Which means, the physical world is not all that exists.
In times past, everything was attributed to metaphysical causal agents…See More
In times past, everything was attributed to metaphysical causal agents…See More
Terence
Ngwerume Reminds me of Mark 9:24 where the father of a sick
child, having been told by Jesus that all things are possible to those who have
faith, proceeded to say 'I do believe; help my unbelief'. Similarly, I want to
believe. Cognitive dissonance.. Perhaps the currency to the metaphysical and
seemingly impossible is faith.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat What strong
foothold does science have?
Wellington
Ziwenga To say Mwari is retreating is wrong.
Mwari/Musikavanhu/Musiki gave warnings before the arrival of those without
knees (this is the only part that is highlighted when people talk of Sekuru
Chaminuka) and all that has happened since until today was predi…See More
Wellington
Ziwenga To add on to my point; Mwari is said to have known
of the scorn and insults on him but promised to be there whenever people got
back to following on his ways which ways are those as practised by our elders.
Stan
Wenjere Abigael Mphisa believing based on evidence could be
a good idea. However, even in one of the most favoured faiths, one day a doubter
was told:
"... blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
"... blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
Bvumavaranda Technocrat I had a
roommate from Guinea when I was at university. One day while we were discussing
Africa's cultures after he had fallen in love with Thomas Mapfumo's music, he
told me what he witnessed as a child in his village. A huge snake appeared in
one of…See More
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Abigael, most
of the people who participate in these discussions are actually very rational
scientists with formal training and experience in generating scientific
knowledge. Un the generality of the scientific community, what you will
encounter h…See More
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Gutter
evidence? Really?
Gara zviya kumusha ndekupi?
Gara zviya kumusha ndekupi?
Madzivire
Mavata It appears white people believed in water myths,
& sacrificed unsuspecting black employees:- Kyle Damk killed people; Kariba
Dam killed. Why did Tokwe-Mukosi dam collapse? Any takers???
Wellington
Ziwenga Abigael you are comparing these things to what you
know. You can't you need an open mind. You will have your mind blown. The fight
to embelish these "things" came from foreign witnesses to the
happenings who had a motive. If you dig dipper into some of the archives you
will be amazed by what you will learn and or find out.
Wellington
Ziwenga There is a big difference between seeking knowledge
and being disrespectful to age old rites just because one wants to "prove"
a thing or two. To understand these things one needs to be knowledgeable of
their rites within their clan and then through un…See More
Shami
Fred Anyone here ever read the Moroccan Black Magic so
called Satanic books and banned nearly everywhere?
Wellington
Ziwenga I want a copy also
Wellington
Ziwenga You picked one sentence out of many. Understand the
context in which the sentence was said.
Wellington
Ziwenga I can't help then.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Skepticism is
simply a lack of curiosity and the lack of willingness to truly find out what
is going on when something is out place or not ordinary. Being skeptical does
not take much in terms of effort.
Mohammad Ali Chatonda Wellington Ziwenga You just about nailed
the problem with the comprehension capabilities of most of us in Zimbabwe!! We
do not listen, and we are incapable of holding a thought that spans more than a
paragraph therefore we take meaning of what might be…See More
Terence
Ngwerume I have studied enought science to know that it
doesn't explain everything, and in fact, even if it did, one cannot but wonder
at the mystery of the universe. Sometimes we rationalise things by saying 'this
rock is made of atoms' but we seldom realise that an atom is just a name and it
doesn't actually tell us very much about why the atom is the way it is , why it
couldn't be something else or indeed where it came from. I will be following more
threads such as this - even if I don't experience anything supernatural myself,
I'm richer for knowing other people'e experiences.
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Somewhere above #Abigael states
that she wants evidence. What evidence is there that she was born besides being
told. How can you without having videos of your birth (which can be
photoshopped and doctored)? The answer lies in faith. Not biblical faith but
faith.
Mufaro Majoni
Hungwe I said somewhere else, why do lawyers need lawyers
to defend them. They know the law, so why. The answer lies in the fact that
they want the best. The keepers of our knowledge (the sages) are our spiritual
lawyers. Let them do their work without having to waste their time explaining
to us about things we cannot improve or change. If they want you to know they
will tell you, sometimes in dreams and you don't listen anywhere!
Madzivire
Mavata Terence Ngwerume, during Jesus' time, in Israel,
there was a pool (Bethsada) where sick people would lie down, waiting for ''an
angel'' to come down stir waters. Whosoever jumped in first got healed.
Madzivire
Mavata The angel (above) could also have healed also at
Manapools, Chipinda pools, Chinhoyi pools, Hotsprings, who knows. Problem is
when white people arrived in Africa, they called such places ''demonic''
Sidney
Taruvinga Madzivire Mavata: People were healed in
Dzivarasekwa, Harare. That was Dziva rambuya Sekwa. I wonder what has become of
this pool today.
Madzivire
Mavata Used to hear something that, but what is the whole story?
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Sidney,
paiera pese pakafumurwa nevarumbi nezvimbwasungata zvavo zvitengesera vanhu
magaka nhasi zvichinzi anorapa.
Sidney
Taruvinga Bvumavaranda Technocrat: the interesting case
is muna Zibagwe (Sebakwe) river just below the Kwe kwe/Harare bridge . They
wanted to construct a dam. Each morning they would find their work scuttled.
After a ceasefire period, they laid all the firm foundations of steel and
concrete and everything that men can think of but lo and behold the following
morning everything was undone. The steel was bent and concrete washed down the
river. No construction ever took place. Today u can see the abandoned works.
People still go there for prayer etc. Vanokanda mari and hainhongwe.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat I think you
need to be a tour guide. When you are, I promise you to be one of your clients.
Sidney
Taruvinga Bvumavaranda Technocrat: oh what an honour,
vaRozvi tinoenda nenyika when that happens.
Neddington Mushawatu when they were
constructing kariba dam Nyaminyami destroyed the dam wall and many Italians
were swept away. They failed to locate 20 of them. And the relatives of those
people had come to collect their bodies so they went to ask for help from the
local Tongas who were claiming Nyaminyami had strike the wall. They were
told to just bring a black cow, a black goat and a black chicken. They
slaughtered them and left them by the riverbank around sunset. In the morning
they found the slaughtered animals gone and the 20 bodies in their place.
Sidney
Taruvinga Neddington Mushawatu: ndozvinoitwa vanenge
vateerera. Kuna Zibagwe havana kupeta misve
Neddington Mushawatu imagine the
writer of that article is a white man who gave reasons to discredit Nyaminyami.
He said we consulted them because they were familiar with the caves along
zambezi. And for those animals he said they were eaten by crocodiles since it's
a crocodile infested River.
Terence
Ngwerume What is it about blood and atonement? I think one
of the reasons it was easy for Africans to embrace Christianity is the idea of
atonement through the blood of Jesus (the lamb) was not foreign to us.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Christianity
has its roots in Africa, which explains the rate at which it was embraced.
Terence
Ngwerume I'd be interested in knowing more. I first had an
inclination towards this while going through John Mbiti's African Religions and
Philosophy
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe The white man as mentioned by #Neddington above
does not understand that the crocodiles may be the Nyaminyami! Why did the
crocodiles not feast on the bodies of the Italians and what he calls knowledge
of the caves is knowledge of the taboos!
White
supremacy's inferiority complex
Sepelong
Makwati Sebola Sidney Taruvinga you remind me of a mountain
back home which is called "sabadimo" in Sotho which translates to
"for the gods". The mountain is nothing but a big pile of small
stones as if someone gathered them around, possibly maybe given the
mountain is said to house great treassures my dad used to tell me white
would use a chopper to fly over it and detect gold but when they landed they
will detect nothing made worse by the small rocks that will slip when one tries
to climb the mountain. Its a very sacred montain to my people infact there is a
number of mountains it and they all
share the same story of ancient treassure which my people believe only a chosen
one will one day be able to get it
Madzivire
Mavata You remind me of Mount Nyanda (Cotapax) near
Masvingo (40Vic), it is conical. Sometimes it burns through the night, but in
the morning it will be green! There is gold, and a lot of it, it's rumuored..
Madzivire
Mavata There are impediments to reach the gold. There is a
scary big guardian snake, believed to have a Chuma (malungu) necklace & a
chest with breasts. Shaft mines always fill with water from nowhere..
Spiwe
N Harper Bvumavaranda Technocrat my bhuti this has
been a very interesting post which kept us busy all weekend. I've saved it in
my archives and will go through it again some other time and refer to quite a
number of things I want to know more about. Thank you.
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Conscientious workers are going back to WORK!
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Our problems start when we want to understand
the intricacies of our beliefs. Why does a person who knows the law need a
lawyer? The people who need to understand and know our traditions are our sort
of lawyers. We need to believe our taboos and we will not be compromised. The
knowledge is always passed from the 'teacher' to pupil by word, apprenticeship
or dreams or kusutswa. This business of wanting to understand and explain
phenomena is the one which caused vaira Moyo to want to get the moon plate for
their king. A similar story is the tower of babel case! Bvumavaranda Technocrat, Shami Fred,#Spiwe.
Sidney
Taruvinga Bvumavaranda Technocrat: Zviri sei Moyondizvo.
Do u have material on Mbuya Sekwa of Dzivarasekwa fame
Mohammad Ali Chatonda Is that not
Mtwakazi?
Sidney
Taruvinga Aiwa kkkkkkk. Dzivarasekwa as in the high density
suburb in Harare. How could u Mohammad Ali Chatonda associate Dziva
rambuya Sekwa with invaders of Guruusva and renamed it Mthwakazi.
Mohammad Ali Chatonda Sidney Taruvinga Zviya kufembera
hakuchatrndengwi?
Sidney Tarivibga there is no Mtwakazi in Guruuswa, and there ar no invaders either, twuzukuru twedu twaa kuda kupanduka chete!
Sidney Tarivibga there is no Mtwakazi in Guruuswa, and there ar no invaders either, twuzukuru twedu twaa kuda kupanduka chete!
Sidney
Taruvinga Mohammad Ali Chatonda ririmuzheve.
Tuzukuru tuchaihwa panzvimbo yatwo. On a serious note I want to check on this
Dzivarasekwa issue this Dec/Jan in DZ Harare
Mohammad Ali Chatonda You are asking
Bvumavaranda, I think he can dig this for you, if not reach out to Mutunhumira
Dewa
Wilberforce Nyamutsika Very
interesting
Sidney
Taruvinga Wilberforce Nyamutsika can u assist
Bvumavaranda Technocrat I had a
roommate from Guinea when I was at university. One day while we were discussing
Africa's cultures after he had fallen in love with Thomas Mapfumo's music, he
told me what he witnessed as a child in his village. A huge snake appeared in
one of…See More
Wellington
Ziwenga I do recall you telling me this story in our other
discussion.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Mhofu, there
is a lot of this esoteric science that we dismissively call magic.
Cde
Gabarinocheka Mbofana Hyper cerebral electrosis
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Cde Gabarinocheka Mbofana, dzikisai gejo
pamatanga ndima iyi.
Charles
Makoni Shave is the spirit of a dead person , whereas as
clearly narrated in the scripture above Elijah didn't die but went into heaven
alive , the spirit of God , the holy spirit can not be equated to a shave
Mufaro
Majoni Hungwe Baba Martha, shavi is not the spirit of a
dead person. Ndopatinorashika ipapo. Shavi is a gift or an art of/from
something! Please refer: Ane shavi rekuba, ane shavi rekumhanya. It does not
have anything to do with death but ability/gift/art. So kunzi anosvikigwa
ne shavi is actually saying anosvikigwa neunyanzvi/umhizha. The source of that
kusvikigwa neshavi MAY be a departed ancestor or directly from
Musiki/Mwari/nyadenga. The ancestor is ALWAYS a conduit to VARI KUMAKORE and we
all know who is kumakore!
Mkhululi
Samkele Mhlaba ..very well put !!
Jim
Latham A Nehanda person (homwe)is also attributed with
striking the waters of the Zambezi which parted to allow crossing by Mbire/Soko
in a story I was told. Will try and dig it out and give details of the white
ants have not got there first. I think Posselt and or Chigwedere also make
mention of this. An emmination of Nehanda always becomes important at times of
crisis c.f. Nyamhita the svikiro fit Nehanda and the kupinga pasi ritual with
Nhowedza fit him to bevine the Mutapa after Mutota.
Bvumavaranda Technocrat Yes, Posselt
mentions the Nehanda story. Gelfand talks about the splitting of rain by a
n'anga.
Michael
Myk Mupereki So you are certifying the bible narrative to
be true?
Bvumavaranda Technocrat It shows that
we were victims of plagiarism, Soko.
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